Empty Pockets: Lesson One: You are not as good as you think (Part 1)
jawngee
· 1 year ago
Awesome post.
You're fucked in this situation. If I have zero table image at this point, and it's early in the game, I will check and fold and wait for a better situation. You're only sunk for $35 bucks and pushing all in (the only move I could imagine at this point) would be critically stupid. I like to start with small pots and build up to bigger ones, so if I still am 300 back, I'm cool with that and will hang tight for better weather. The sharks can keep my $35 bucks.
Also, if you show weakness here, you can utilize that down the road when you flop the nuts. Here I would check and fold to any bet over $35 to see what the turn brings. Land me trips? Spike the shit out of it and get paid. But again, I'm of the "pot progression" school of thinking in terms of time management and applying value to hands. When you're weak on the table and short stacked, the value of your hands drop and you're in no position to think of trying to maximize that value. I feel like the aim here should be building up chips in relative safety.
Once I'm deep stacked, it's an entirely different situation though and you'll see me spike that flop without hesitation.
raymond1138
· 1 year ago
It's funny: I read this post as I was watching this past week's WPT and they showed a quote on screen as an "old poker adage" - There are three ways to play pocket jacks and they're all wrong.
I'm more of a micro-stakes player so that may be coloring my thinking, but with $300 behind, what's wrong with a $70-80 continuation bet? With five callers, a 9-high flop is likely to have hit at least one of them. Why not see if we can't narrow the field and then slow down on the turn if it gets scary? I suppose it also depends on the draws possible on the flop, but I usually get burned more often than not when I don't protect my hands. We're in position so if the bets come flying now, I'm willing to shut down and wait for a better spot where I'm not trying to figure out what more than one player is doing.
That said, very good post and it makes me want to get out and play.
Dong Khee
· 1 year ago
Continuation bet makes sense here. At about twice the pre-flop raise ($70). Chances are, the Jacks are good, and if someone comes over the top, you can let go. What's tough is that the $70 bet against a $150+ pot might look weak and you might be getting a reraise from a dog like A9. But such is life when you have no information from just sitting down at a table.
jawngee
· 1 year ago
Ok, so you drop 2, get 2 callers and last to act min-raises?
You can reply to posts by replying to the email notices, sick.
raymond1138
· 1 year ago
Just because I'm enjoying this conversation more than anything going on at work, I'll keep thinking out loud.
I think it's the callers that are more concerning than the raiser. A min-raise (based on no other information and the levels I'm used to playing at) screams A9 here thinking they're "raising for information". The callers are now based on all the action probably getting the right price for their draws. So it's fold-or-push time, the exact situation we were trying to avoid. Now I'm ready to let go and live to fight another day. The only good thing that comes out of this situation now is it's probably going to showdown so we'll at least get some insight for our investment.
But I'd pose back to you: suppose everybody folds but the last to act puts us in, are you still folding?
Dong Khee
· 1 year ago
I will say for as many times as I've been cracked with pocket Jacks here... I've more often doubled through. A marginal pair here, A9 even down to 10,9, may make a reraise here, and could be putting you on an AK continuation bet. So I don't consider it a horrible play to get all your chips in here but again, with some more time at the table and with some kind of read on the players, you can make a more informed decision.
That said, they don't call me Dong Khee for nothing.
Wes
· 1 year ago
Without a little more info on the post-flop action before it comes around to you it's difficult to say definitively. If it's checked around through 5 preflop cold-callers, I sense definite weakness and would make a 2/3-pot - to - pot-sized bet, again, depending on the texture of the flop. 2/3 if rainbow and no straights, pot sized if there are draws visible. You have to figure you're good but you can't let anybody get the right price to see another card, as you're extremely vulnerable.
But, I think I'm generally a more aggressive player than JG, and I certainly don't see anything wrong with his "wait for a better spot" perspective.
I've laid this exact hand down in a similar situation, though the preflop action was a little different, and combined with a physical tell I had on the guy in question, I was able to make the right read. At the Borgata I was dealt JJ in the button, HJ raises, I call, early limper calls. Flop comes 9-high with two clubs. Checked around, I bet out, early limper folds, HJ raises. I get away, he had QQ. Fortunately his raise preflop gave me somewhat better info than you have here, plus his hands shook as he reached for chips whenever he had a big pocket.
John
· 1 year ago
I shove all of my chips in the pot.. Forget what the other players have, even if your beat, if you think positive (or you are asian) you will have no problem sucking out. Hope this helps.
All Comments
You're fucked in this situation. If I have zero table image at this point, and it's early in the game, I will check and fold and wait for a better situation. You're only sunk for $35 bucks and pushing all in (the only move I could imagine at this point) would be critically stupid. I like to start with small pots and build up to bigger ones, so if I still am 300 back, I'm cool with that and will hang tight for better weather. The sharks can keep my $35 bucks.
Also, if you show weakness here, you can utilize that down the road when you flop the nuts. Here I would check and fold to any bet over $35 to see what the turn brings. Land me trips? Spike the shit out of it and get paid. But again, I'm of the "pot progression" school of thinking in terms of time management and applying value to hands. When you're weak on the table and short stacked, the value of your hands drop and you're in no position to think of trying to maximize that value. I feel like the aim here should be building up chips in relative safety.
Once I'm deep stacked, it's an entirely different situation though and you'll see me spike that flop without hesitation.
I'm more of a micro-stakes player so that may be coloring my thinking, but with $300 behind, what's wrong with a $70-80 continuation bet? With five callers, a 9-high flop is likely to have hit at least one of them. Why not see if we can't narrow the field and then slow down on the turn if it gets scary? I suppose it also depends on the draws possible on the flop, but I usually get burned more often than not when I don't protect my hands. We're in position so if the bets come flying now, I'm willing to shut down and wait for a better spot where I'm not trying to figure out what more than one player is doing.
That said, very good post and it makes me want to get out and play.
You can reply to posts by replying to the email notices, sick.
I think it's the callers that are more concerning than the raiser. A min-raise (based on no other information and the levels I'm used to playing at) screams A9 here thinking they're "raising for information". The callers are now based on all the action probably getting the right price for their draws. So it's fold-or-push time, the exact situation we were trying to avoid. Now I'm ready to let go and live to fight another day. The only good thing that comes out of this situation now is it's probably going to showdown so we'll at least get some insight for our investment.
But I'd pose back to you: suppose everybody folds but the last to act puts us in, are you still folding?
That said, they don't call me Dong Khee for nothing.
But, I think I'm generally a more aggressive player than JG, and I certainly don't see anything wrong with his "wait for a better spot" perspective.
I've laid this exact hand down in a similar situation, though the preflop action was a little different, and combined with a physical tell I had on the guy in question, I was able to make the right read. At the Borgata I was dealt JJ in the button, HJ raises, I call, early limper calls. Flop comes 9-high with two clubs. Checked around, I bet out, early limper folds, HJ raises. I get away, he had QQ. Fortunately his raise preflop gave me somewhat better info than you have here, plus his hands shook as he reached for chips whenever he had a big pocket.